The Dozens Bonds are Back!

he he he … I think I was nicknamed “Ubiquitous Rob” at one point in some forum

thanks so much for the link. I’ve decided that unless I’m needed to dispel misunderstandings, I probably can’t, and shouldn’t be EVERYWHERE as it makes it hard to always stay on top of things. I would hate to start a reply then miss a follow-up and appear not to care.

Thanks so much for this one. I’m always amazed by how brilliant and informed our customers and investors are who have already replied to questions, so I’m not sure I can add much more. I’d be happy to join in if anyone felt it was required - please do ping me and I’ll do my best (it isn’t your job after all)

I do believe so. The engineering team are still working on this as we’re still getting a lot of traffic. Should be better already.

Do you mean an actual statement for your current account, or one for the cash savings? For the current account, head to ‘Spend’ and click on the icon of the arrow into the box (for monthly statements or custom periods.

You can also click on the user ‘avatar’ (top left) to get to your Account details, then you can click on details for your Current Account to get monthly statements

There is a separate list of Transactions for your cash savings, but we’re fixing a small issue here at the moment so it is not currently available, but will be again shortly

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I actually meant the statement for dozens’ own deposit into the ringfenced emoney account!

ah! there was a comment, yes:

We probably won’t do this for every issuance, but this was done to answer questions for the first issuance as a way to give some added transparency.

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Thanks!

Couldn’t find it earlier

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So so so excited for this and for next months issuance as well! Hopefully there will be no more issues and the bonds can be active every month.

Quick question, is there an issue with the savers awards/nominations again? Apparently I have 0 nominations even though I do use the card and account.

Yes, the plan is for these issuances to be available regularly so customers can put in regular smaller amounts rather than be required to provide lump sums.

The Savers Awards counter in the app is not showing anyone’s total right now. The logic changes are working in the background and are still being counted and used for the draws, but not yet showing in the app. The developers have been rather busy getting the Bonds and other parts of the app ready for launch, but we will get these live again shortly

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Thanks @robert - 3 bits of feedback

1 - Was asked for NI number even thought I selected General Investment Account - not a big deal, but potentially confusing

2 - The pending bond keeps disappearing from the ‘my fixed interest bonds’ section of the grow screen. I’m sure its cosmetic (it always comes back), but potentially disconcerting.

3 - I understand how/why you’ll allocate the bonds, however it seems a bit unfair that someone who bid £1000 as soon as they are available might get nothing - while people bidding less than this at the last minute did get bonds. Have you considered lining up all the bids in order of time placed, and giving each person the first £100 of their bid. Then if there are any funds left, repeat giving £100 more to each person (still in order) who bid for more, repeating until all the money is allocated. I’d rather get something and nothing (and would have bid more if you were using this logic…) and this way small bidders still get a fair shake.

Oh one other idea - how about an IFTTT trigger so we can get alerts (or even automatically bid!) when you release a new round of bonds?

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Disagree. To me it would be unfair to operate on a first come, first serve basis.

The current bid-allocation process achieves the greatest good for the greatest number of people by design and should not be altered nor complicated in favour of speed or those who already possess larger savings.

If you’d rather get something than nothing, then bid little and often. It’s not all or nothing.

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I totally agree that the bonds should not be biased against people wishing to apply for larger sums. If, for instance, you only get a £100 allocation, then you will only receive £5 return at the end of a whole year, if matters don’t go awry, so it’s not worth it.

There shouldn’t be a bias against people wishing to invest larger sums into the bond.

Considering it’s unlikely people will get their allocation as the current bond round is only £100k total, do customers actually have to have the full amount of money they apply for in your dozens account? Or can transfer it in when the bond is launched at the start of next month?

Thanks.

Thanks @dan_g

We ask all investors this question, whether it is for the ISA or not.

Yes, that should not be happening and is related to the server load causing delays to the info being downloaded to your app. We are working to fix this

I do see your point, but that assumes that this is done on a first-come-first-served basis. While it is important to give some priority to those who come first, it should only be on a fair basis, so we will prioritise bids of the same amount according to the time they bid. However, the overall intention of these bonds is to spread the benefit to as many customers as possible, and not just reward those with large lump sums who are ready to move faster than others.

Rather than give you only the first £100 of your larger bid, and making the process even longer and more complicated, we decided to leave the decision-making to the customer.

In terms of notifications, the plan is to have these issuances regularly so this should not be necessary

We’ve said all along that this bond is intended to help as many savers as possible to get started with this habit, and to benefit even when they do not have lump sums. If you have savings already, then you already have other options available to you.

Yes. Since the bids are allocated or rejected at a single moment, we need to know that those we accept will be able to afford this commitment (since those who get rejected will not get the chance to bid again in this issuance). The amount you bid needs to be in your cash savings and is committed once you bid, and is returned to you immediately if your bid is unsuccessful.

Since the time of the bid is not the main criteria for selection, you can always bid at the last minute if you prefer not to commit an amount for any length of time.

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2 posts were merged into an existing topic: Unable to add money to buy a bond using the purchase bond flow

Thanks for your reply, good to know.

I understand - the approach I suggest benefits more people than your current approach - everyone gets something wherever possible (ie you have enough money to give everyone £100), and higher bidders don’t get left out entirely, they just might not get all their money in this issuance.

But as a customer I cannot make the optimal decision here. I don’t have the information I need.

Say I have £300 in a “savings” account getting 0.5% and I want to get all of that into one of your bonds. If I bid £300, I might end up with all my savings getting 5% interest, or I might miss out and get stuck with them all at the lower rate. If I play safe and bid £100 knowing I’m more likely to get the smaller amount in, but l’ve left 2/3 of my savings at the lower rate.

The “decision” I want to make is ‘please put up to £300 into a product with a better rate’. I accept these are limited issue, and I applaud the effort to ‘spread the wealth’. But having me guess how many other people are bidding and if they will bid £100 or £1000 is just frustrating, not empowering - since I cannot know the outcome you might even class it as gambling on my future interest payments.

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Not necessarily. dozens doesn’t need to fill each issuance each month and by not filling each issuance, they may be able to extend the programme until its full and benefit more absolute small savers as their customers grow over time.

This is by design - bonds are primarily for spenders to savers. You’re the type of customer dozens doesn’t want gaming the system i.e. someone with meaningful savings elsewhere who - may not be using the card for spending - seeks to shift lump sums from a lower rate savings account to dozens bonds. Therefore, it makes sense that they ensure you have imperfect information so that big savers don’t hoard up the issuance with their ‘rate seeking’ so to speak. They still want savers as customer but they want you to (partially) utilise their investment products which should be launching soon (hence saver to investor journey).

Sure bid for the bonds, but it’s fanciful to think dozens would change the bond bidding process to benefit you when it’s not optimal for them.

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Dozens has been clear from the start that the bonds are a loss leader and the profit will come from interchange and investment fees, so it’s 100% geared to those interested in the whole journey

You’ve misunderstood how they will allocate funds. If there are sufficient bids, all the funds will be allocated, as stated in the blog post. Dozens can of course change the issuance size to cut out people bidding over £x, or simply change the upper bid limit in future rounds. This would have the same effect on limiting high bidders whichever way you allocate the funds.

However, assuming they give anyone who bids over £100 anything, isn’t it fairer to give more/all them all something rather than let some people ‘game the system’ (as you put it) in full while others get nothing?

As a simple example, all I’m suggesting is that when allocation gets down to the last £400 and two next people have bid £300 it would be fairer for both to get £200 than 1 to get £300 and the other 0. You yourself agreed that it shouldn’t be first come, first serve - surely better to issue them both a bond of £200?

You have no idea what ‘type’ of customer I am. Your suggestion that my hypothetical saver who had £300 in savings should be looking at putting any of this into investment products is alarming.

I’m not asking them to change anything - for my benefit or otherwise. I’m not sure why you’ve jumped to this conclusion.

I’m simply discussing the method of allocation - I’m interested in algorithms and like Dozen’s approach to encouraging people to save and spend responsibly, and their transparency. If a lot of people bid £300 in this round miss out entirely, they are likely to agree with me - especially if there are also a bunch of people who bid £300 and got it!

I do feel what I have outlined is fairer. It undeniably reaches more customers than the current system (in the likely case of their being more than £100 per bidder available) which is the aim @robert has stated here.

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It is an interesting idea, but in practice could make things even more complicated.

Your example works because the maths is simple, but what if there was £400 left and 3 bidders at £300? Or, more likely, something like £40,000 and 250 bidders at £300. In these cases ALL these customers would only be able to get £100 each, leaving a lump unallocated. Is that really fairer?

I’m sure there would be a percentage who would rather have all £300 returned to do something else with (including bidding the next month) rather than tying up just £100 and only having £200 as disposable.

While we want to make sure that we share the issuance as widely as possible by building a book of bids, and then prioritising in ascending order, there will always be those who are on whatever boundary is set.

At that point it is fair to give priority to those who asked first since they have committed their funds the longest. What we are not doing is ONLY prioritising on the order of the request since this could reward only a small number of customers.

No system will ever be perfect for all use cases, I’m sure, but we are trying to create something a bit different, and we will continue to review feedback, so we do appreciate the discussion, but hopefully you can see why we’ve built the model that we have.

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woohoo!
:money_mouth_face::money_mouth_face::money_mouth_face:

Thanks for your replies @robert - all systems look simple until you examine the edge conditions! This wasn’t intended as criticism (or an attempt to game your system to my personal advantage as has been suggested!).

I don’t think your system is unfair at all, but where you have a small number of high(er) bidders left after everyone has been satisfied, and you want to issue the money, I’d personally prefer to have bid on ‘up to £x00’ rather than ‘£x00 or nothing’), and to know that whatever was left after fairly servicing the smaller bidders would be divided up equally - or returned to the pot for the next round.

Of course I might prefer to get my full amount back and save it elsewhere, if only a few more institutions were good enough to offer 5% rates like you :grinning:.

Anyway - hadn’t intended to take over the thread with algorithmic minutiae - do appreciate Dozens listening to this feedback, and good luck to everyone who has placed a bid!

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I haven’t.

No, I agreed with how the current system works where a (lower) later £100 bid is prioritised over a (higher) earlier £300 bid. When it comes to bids of equal amounts, I’m fine with first come, first served allocation for simplicity. Though I do think you’ve made good suggestions.

Apologies, when I said you I meant generally within dozens framework of how they classify their journey, not specifically you. I was writing with the earlier £1000 you had mentioned, although a liquid traditional low volatility bond product e.g. short term government USA/U.K. bonds isn’t that alarming.

Having thought about it, it’s good for thought especially as customer numbers are higher now that the first bond issuance a while ago. Let’s see how the current process fairs. Looking forward to statistics being published.

I have a few queries about the bonds and tried talking to customer services, who said to email but I’m yet to get a reply, so figured I’d try here:

  1. How many tranches of bond releases can I apply for? If I apply for £100 in this one can I also apply for another £500 in this one? Can I apply for a further £500 in the next one? If I want to sell bonds fropm multiple releases do I have to sell all of them?

  2. It says “Dozens deposits the money invested plus the promised interest, into a separate trustee controlled account (where we can no longer touch it)”. Who are these trustees? Why are they impartial to Dozens? How do we know that they won’t use the money to try to keep Dozens going? What are their contact details in the event Dozens does go bust?

  3. From what I can gather you’re treating the 5% bond interest you’ll pay us as a sort of advertising/growing fee to promote the company/get money into it and the 5% is generated from the fees charged to others within Dozens? So does this mean that none of the money invested as bonds in dozens is invested into stock/shares? The 5% is generated from what activities?

  4. In the event of a recession and people stop using Dozens in favour of traditional banks, you would have no means to generate the >5% fees from customers and so wouldn’t be able to pay the 5% interest, what would happen in this case?

I’m eager to learn more as I’m really tempted to go for it and TBH was expecting a bit more of a FAQ on the whole thing, seems to be lacking information.