In-app segregation of GIA and ISA is needed

Over the the last few months I have purchased a few Dozens bonds.

One has been purchased as a GIA investment and the others have been purchased as ISA investments. As a result, the Grow section in my app has a mixture of GIA and ISA funds. However there is no in-app segregation of these accounts.

The Dozens app does not provide me with the following important pieces of information (and so I have to try to manually keep track myself):

  1. How much money I have subscribed to my Dozens ISA in the current tax year.
  2. How much money is currently in my GIA and how much money is currently in my ISA.
  3. Specification of which bonds were purchased in my GIA and which were purchased in my ISA.

Furthermore when I bid on a bond, there does not seem to be any way to specify which account (GIA or ISA) the cash is drawn from. If I am already holding cash in my ISA (e.g. from previous ISA bond interest payments) it would make most sense to me to first use that cash to contribute to the bond purchase before subscribing new cash (or at least provide the option to do so). I have no idea if that is happening automatically or if new cash to the full value of the bond is subscribed to the ISA when I bid on a new bond. Therefore for new ISA bonds I don’t have a clear idea how much I am subscribing even if I am trying to manually track my subscriptions.

I think these are particularly problematic issues as they could lead to someone over-subscribing their ISA and running into problems with HMRC.

Please address this!

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If reporting issues with the app, I note that the View Transactions option (under more details) in Grow doesn’t work (and never has for me).

In fact, I find the whole ‘My Cash Savings’ bit unnecessarily confusing - much simpler just to pay interest/take funds from your card account.

It would also be nice to get a notification on your phone whenever an interest payment is made.

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Same for me.

Also, doesn’t really make sense for this to be in Grow when the cash savings are not earning interest and so not growing anything.

It seems to me Grow and Invest should probably be a single tab and shoulld exclude cash savings. Once you enter this tab there should be separate versions for your GIA and ISA accounts (so it is easy to see what you have in GIA and what you have in ISA). The problem I decribe in my original post would be even worse if I was using the invest tab as I would then have GIA and ISA funds spread across Grow and Invest and I would need to manually stay on top of it all.

If Grow and Invest were in a single tab, there could be another tab which could be called Save and could hold cash savings which have been put aside from the spending account but not yet been moved to a GIA or ISA account.

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These are all valid and useful feedback, thanks @o99 and @gt94sss2.

We do accept that, at present, there is not enough clarity regarding GIA vs ISA cash savings and interest in the Grow section. We are actively working on a fix for this so that you have all the information you could need. Here are some details on what is happening:

ISA and GIA statements

This section of the app was working, but we needed to upgrade it to be able to offer you separate GIA and ISA statements alongside your current account exports. This work is still ongoing and unfortunately this button has therefore been disabled. It will be back so that you will be able to review all the separate balances, interest payments and money movements in the near future. We apologise for the delay but we trust that the great new functionality will be worth the wait.

In the interim, you can calculate how much has been invested in your ISA by totalling the sums you have successfully bid for bonds (where you asked for these to be in an ISA wrapper). The interest that is paid on these does not count towards your annual “subscription” as long as you do not remove it and then reinvest it.

Any remaining balance (any money you have transferred manually, via rules or round-ups) will remain within the GIA until it is invested.

In the interim, if you have any questions on your balance, or whether a particular bond is within your ISA or GIA, then do get in touch via customer service and our team can send you a personalised report as we are able to work this out for you.

Bidding for Bonds

The app does not currently allow you to manage your ISA and GIA cash savings separately. This means it is not possible to allow users to choose which of their pots to use for investments.

Because of this, we prioritise moving funds for any new bid from funds you add from your GIA. This means a new bid for bonds is a movement in to your ISA (if selected). If there are insufficient funds for the full amount then we will use your ISA funds as well rather than ask you to add more.

If you withdraw money from your cash savings to your current account, we also prioritise your non ISA funds for this so your ISA funds stay within the wrapper as long as possible. If you withdraw your full balance, or there is not enough, then you would be withdrawing your ISA balance.

In the near future it will be possible to manage these funds separately.

Grow vs Invest

Grow was created to hold your cash savings in order that you could make different kinds of investments. The reason Dozens can offer you our OWN investment products is that we have an e-money licence (so you get your debit card for spending, and you can know that your money is ring-fenced) and our MIFID licence (so we can sell you investments, and manage your money for this purpose).

We therefore need you to have money in this account to bid for bonds or invest in ETFs, and to pay any bond interest payments back into.

The reason that bonds appear in Grow, as opposed to Invest is to separate two very different kinds of risk. While your capital is at risk with any investment, there have been some very specific steps we have taken to minimise this risk for the Dozens Fixed Interest Bonds. We want to make sure that no-one is confused about the risk of other investments. In particular, you need to go through our risk assessment questionnaire to use the Invest section, but not to buy the fixed-interest bonds, and therefore it is better to keep these separate.

In addition, there will soon be other options for cash savings that will appear in Grow.

Hope you don’t mind the long and detailed reply, but hopefully this clarifies the situation.

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Thanks @robert, I had the same questions as @o99, but never got round to asking.

One question I had on top is will it be possible to transfer existing investments (with dozens) into the ISA wrapper. I’m waiting until April to start putting new bonds/Investments into an ISA as I have an existing S&S ISA elsewhere. So then I will open one with the April bond, however I already have several GIA bonds and an investment.

Another was it’s not clear to me how investment fees are taken… From the investment or elsewhere. and also how much they were at any given time as the ‘transactions’ view for my investment shows no fees since October when I made the investment.

I’m pretty sure HMRC rules prevent the transfer of existing investments into an ISA. They would need to be sold and repurchased.

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Wasn’t sure as they are with the same provider, will read up.

EDIT: You’re quite right on shares, it’s there in the quick reference to ISA’s on the government page. Darn. No mention of bonds tho…

I asked about transferring existing bonds from GIA to ISA through in-app chat a few weeks ago. Was told I would have to sell the bond and re-purchase inside ISA. Had a follow up question to this as well - I wanted to know if Dozens could facilitate re-purchasing outside the normal bidding cycle/process. Was told no. Will need to bid again.

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:sob:

Oh well as there is no loss of interest I guess it’s no hard ship as I’ve been bidding low, always accepted amounts bar the first public bid.

Or alternatively wait for the next big issuance to bid higher

Although investments are more annoying

As @gt94sss2 says, it is not possible to move an existing investment into an ISA. It needs to be arranged at the time you purchase / make the investment. You could sell your bonds held in your GIA and then use that money to bid for new bonds in the current issuance within an ISA if that is what you wanted.

Understood. You can only pay into one Stocks & Shares ISA per year, but you can keep a previous one open, with existing funds in it, while using your 2020-21 Dozens ISA if you choose to do so.

At this time we still cannot transfer external ISA funds into a Dozens ISA.

The value of your holding that you see is net of our charges, so you do not have to pay another fee. The performance that we report includes the fees.

The fees are calculated each day and if the value of your investment is above the amount you invested, then a pro-rata daily fee is charged based on the 0.5% p.a. we charge for all investments. Does that help?

We will be sending all customers who use the Invest section an annual statement at some point that will show how much was charged, but if you have any questions in the interim you could get in touch and someone could create this for you.

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Roger about the single S&S, that’s the plan. I took out the other one when I was still waiting for dozens to launch the investments typically it came a month later :joy: it can stay where it is until transfers are available.

Thanks for the clarification on the fees. I was expecting to see it in the transaction list somewhere so you had a record of it, but I guess for now I can assume that’s pure ‘profit’ reflected in the figure and if I want absolute detail I’ll ask :slightly_smiling_face:

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Having just made my first sale in preparation for the new Tax Year, I think something might be a bit skewiff with the contract notes and the settlement amounts…

Amount shown as ‘investmet sold’: £1,122.39 (I totally understand this was the current market value when I pressed the sell button, so is unlikely to settle at this)

Amount deposited in my account as settled, and shown in app as final value of ‘you sold at’: £1,134.26

Amount shown on Contract Note as settlement amount: £1,107.66

My thought is the last two should be the same… :slightly_smiling_face:

Apologies for the slight delay, but I needed to get time to sit with the Investment team to understand this better to explain it

The amount you saw in the app was based on the latest value of your whole investment at that moment. As you say, the settlement could be slightly different.

When this is actually sold, the final amount you receive will be made up of the actual settled amount (the value of the actual investment sold) PLUS any residual cash in your account. This will be the difference between the two amounts you quoted.

There will usually be a small cash amount which is there in part because we are not currently buying fractional shares (so there will be some left over after your initial purchase) plus a retained amount to cover any fees.

This sounds complicated, but I trust you understand.

So the contract note you are looking at is more specific, but does not include the full picture of your account.

We are looking at adding even more detail about the cash balance to the app screen and to any reports in order to make it even clearer in future, but we also do not want to make this too complicated to read for new investors.

The main thing to note is that the value you see in the app is the fullest picture possible at the time.

Does this answer your question?

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Apologies, been ill the last few days.

Thanks Rob, I think so. I did also put the question into the team and got a similar answer, but I think by combining them both I understand.

My rough understanding is ->

I put in £1000, but for various reasons I won’t have actually held in the backend the full £1000 in the investment (by my calculation about £27 would be held back)

So the ‘profit’ in my sale of that was around £130 (taking me back to a settlement of 1107) then re-adding the returned cash minus any fees i get the 1134 figure.

Or at least, that makes sense to me :slight_smile:

Yes, pretty much

First, you invest a round figure, but the shares of each portfolio will not be quite so round, so we will always do what we can to buy as many shares as we can, but it will leave a ‘remainder’ in cash which will depend on the value of the shares.

In addition, we will be charging occasional fees (when the portfolio has grown) so rather than having to sell any shares, or ask for more fees, there will be a small cash reserve in the investment account for this.

When you settle the account, we will let you know what the value of the shares were that were sold and return this and any remaining cash balance after all fees are sorted.

Hope that helps. Seems you did reasonably well?

BTW hope you feel better!

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Got it :slight_smile:

Makes sense to hold the reserve rather than returning it, forcing additional unnecessary investment transactions. Especially as there are only ongoing charges if the value rises, protects the growth somewhat as it doesn’t erode the invested capital straight away.

Yes, I was rather pleased with that considering it was only a 4 month investment! Certainly encouraging.

Good thank you, luckily was only a mini-flu.

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Personally, I’d prefer the fees taken by direct debit completely separately. It’s easier to keep an eye on the costs and everything you put in just gets invested.

I prefer it this way personally because so long as the investment is showing a positive number I know costs haven’t eroded profit (ignoring that dozens doesn’t charge when investment going down)

I find that if charges are paid elsewhere it’s more effort to check to makes sure the fees coming out over time aren’t more than the value of the potential profit (or indeed the whole investment)

But its definitely a personal choice.

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